Integrate autobahn.js with primus

#1

Hi,

I watched the Arnout Kazemier’s conf (http://vimeo.com/77289036) about primus, a abstraction layer on top of websocket trying unify NodeJS websocket framework.

There maybe something to do about autobahn.js and primus, espacially since primus so I opened a ticket on his bug tracker : https://github.com/primus/primus/issues/261

You may want to get in touch with the guy, he seems really pationate and the NodeJS community are really allies we want and need to improve tools around WAMP.

Really we should start thinking about a way to distinguish WAMP the protocole from the server setup.

It confuses everybody and make it so hard to google for it.

Go went for Golang.

Rust went for rustlang.

Can we settle for something like WAMP.ws (even if it’s not just websocket, it the main transport anyway) and put it everywhere ?

0 Likes

#2

Hi Michel,

> I watched the Arnout Kazemier's conf (http://vimeo.com/77289036) about

primus, a abstraction layer on top of websocket trying unify NodeJS
websocket framework.

"Primus is basically a WebSocket abstraction of all WebSocket abstraction libraries out there".

Ah, right .. not sure I buy into that;)

This stuff is proliferating on NodeJS like weed:
http://strongloop.com/strongblog/real-time-engines-in-node-js/

There maybe something to do about autobahn.js and primus, espacially
since primus so I opened a ticket on his bug tracker :
https://github.com/primus/primus/issues/261

The idea of approaching other projects, collaborating and consolidating is good! In this particular case however, I have some doubts though

https://github.com/primus/primus/issues/261#issuecomment-48728411

What other projects could be approach?

I think there is room for better integration with UI frameworks inside the Browser. In particular UI frameworks that focus on "Single Page Apps" (SPA), e.g.

1. AngularJS
2. KnockoutJS
3. ExtJS
4. DurandalJS (http://durandaljs.com/)

Of these, I think having a fine and simple AngularJS / AutobahnJS integration would really be a huge step forward.

[Knockout: it's not a full SPA framework, and it's very easy to use with Autobahn. We use it all the time.]

Anyone wants to start a Angular/Autobahn integration project?

Any thoughts on project collaboration?

Cheers,
/Tobias

0 Likes

#3

Hi Tobias et al.,

···

On 11 July 2014 16:17, Tobias Oberstein tobias.o...@gmail.com wrote:

Hi Michel,

I watched the Arnout Kazemier’s conf (http://vimeo.com/77289036) about
primus, a abstraction layer on top of websocket trying unify NodeJS

websocket framework.

“Primus is basically a WebSocket abstraction of all WebSocket abstraction libraries out there”.

That kind of statements is so empty of any meaning I can’t make my head around what it actually covers.

sigh…

Ah, right … not sure I buy into that;)

This stuff is proliferating on NodeJS like weed:

http://strongloop.com/strongblog/real-time-engines-in-node-js/

There maybe something to do about autobahn.js and primus, espacially

since primus so I opened a ticket on his bug tracker :

https://github.com/primus/primus/issues/261

The idea of approaching other projects, collaborating and consolidating is good! In this particular case however, I have some doubts though

https://github.com/primus/primus/issues/261#issuecomment-48728411

What other projects could be approach?

I think there is room for better integration with UI frameworks inside the Browser. In particular UI frameworks that focus on “Single Page Apps” (SPA), e.g.

  1. AngularJS

  2. KnockoutJS

  3. ExtJS

  4. DurandalJS (http://durandaljs.com/)

Of these, I think having a fine and simple AngularJS / AutobahnJS integration would really be a huge step forward.

[Knockout: it’s not a full SPA framework, and it’s very easy to use with Autobahn. We use it all the time.]

Anyone wants to start a Angular/Autobahn integration project?

I have not enough time to work on a CherryPy integration so I’d say no. However, it does feel like WAMP is meant to exist for single page apps indeed. So it does make sense.

There are so many of them however… :frowning:

0 Likes

#4

Hi Michel,

>
> Really we should start thinking about a way to distinguish WAMP the
> protocole from the server setup.

I guess you mean confusing WAMP (as in "Web Application Messaging Protocol") with WAMP (as in "Windows Apache MySQL PHP").

>
> It confuses everybody and make it so hard to google for it.
>

In retrospect, chosing "WAMP" as an acronym was a mistake. No doubt.
I agree that discoverability and confusion _is_ a problem.

> Go went for Golang.
>
> Rust went for rustlang.
>
> Can we settle for something like WAMP.ws (even if it's not just
> websocket, it the main transport anyway) and put it everywhere ?

Now, what should be do?

We would need a term/name that is easy to Google, easy to pronounce,
but nevertheless maintains some kind of relation to "WAMP".

Off my head:

wamp2
wampx (pronounced: "wampex")
wampws
wampp
wamproto
wamp-proto

···

Am 11.07.2014 11:04, schrieb Michel Desmoulin:

==

The problem I have with "WAMP.ws":

- it has a special char in it (".") .. makes googling / tagging harder
- I cannot pronounce it quickly;)

Any ideas / suggestions on this are welcome!

Should be change? If so, what name?

Cheers,
/Tobias

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#5

Hi Michel,

>
> Really we should start thinking about a way to distinguish WAMP the
> protocole from the server setup.

I guess you mean confusing WAMP (as in "Web Application Messaging
Protocol") with WAMP (as in "Windows Apache MySQL PHP").

Indeed. It has always been confusing really.
Besides, "web application" is a bit simplistic. Afterall, can't we use the
protocol outside web application anyway? Do ypu mean web as in world wide
web or as HTTP?

>
> It confuses everybody and make it so hard to google for it.
>

In retrospect, chosing "WAMP" as an acronym was a mistake. No doubt.
I agree that discoverability and confusion _is_ a problem.

Not just that... it's not "sexy". It's a bit sad, but you need to be easy
to pronounce.

> Go went for Golang.
>
> Rust went for rustlang.
>
> Can we settle for something like WAMP.ws (even if it's not just
> websocket, it the main transport anyway) and put it everywhere ?

Now, what should be do?

Change it entirely. Don't go the Zope way by keeping a loaded name.

We would need a term/name that is easy to Google, easy to pronounce,
but nevertheless maintains some kind of relation to "WAMP".

Off my head:

wamp2
wampx (pronounced: "wampex")
wampws
wampp
wamproto
wamp-proto

==

The problem I have with "WAMP.ws":

- it has a special char in it (".") .. makes googling / tagging harder
- I cannot pronounce it quickly;)

Any ideas / suggestions on this are welcome!

Should be change? If so, what name?

Is there an animal that could somehow represent what WAMP is all about?
Just a thought...

···

On 11 July 2014 16:45, Tobias Oberstein <tobias.o...@gmail.com> wrote:

Am 11.07.2014 11:04, schrieb Michel Desmoulin:

--
- Sylvain
http://www.defuze.org
http://twitter.com/lawouach

0 Likes

#6

Hi Sylvain,

Anyone wants to start a Angular/Autobahn integration project?

I have not enough time to work on a CherryPy integration so I'd say no.
However, it does feel like WAMP is meant to exist for single page apps
indeed. So it does make sense.

Yep. SPA is the focus.

There are so many of them however... :frowning:

As always in JS;)

I am wondering about brain share though .. I was under the impression that angular indeed has quite some share with SPA frameworks.

In other words: what SPA frameworks are developers actually using out there?

/Tobias

0 Likes

#7

In other words: what SPA frameworks are developers actually using out
there?

No idea as I've never used one so far. So, i'm also interested in knowing
the statistics.

···

--
- Sylvain
http://www.defuze.org
http://twitter.com/lawouach

0 Likes

#8

    I guess you mean confusing WAMP (as in "Web Application Messaging
    Protocol") with WAMP (as in "Windows Apache MySQL PHP").

Indeed. It has always been confusing really.
Besides, "web application" is a bit simplistic. Afterall, can't we use
the protocol outside web application anyway? Do ypu mean web as in world
wide web or as HTTP?

The "Web" in WAMP isn't covering all uses of WAMP any longer.

E.g. you can use WAMP with a Internet of Things app where there isn't any "Web" involved at all.

In fact, the "W" formerly stood for "WebSocket", but that wasn't any longer precise also (since WAMP can run over non-WebSocket as well).

Technically, what the protocol really provides is this:

Unified Application Messaging

That RPC+PubSub story.

However, "Unified Application Messaging Protocol (UAMP)" is bad also.

     >
     > It confuses everybody and make it so hard to google for it.
     >

    In retrospect, chosing "WAMP" as an acronym was a mistake. No doubt.
    I agree that discoverability and confusion _is_ a problem.

Not just that... it's not "sexy". It's a bit sad, but you need to be
easy to pronounce.

Yep. What would be good examples of names in the protocol field?

SPDY ("Speedy") seems nice ..

     > Go went for Golang.
     >
     > Rust went for rustlang.
     >
     > Can we settle for something like WAMP.ws (even if it's not just
     > websocket, it the main transport anyway) and put it everywhere ?

    Now, what should be do?

Change it entirely. Don't go the Zope way by keeping a loaded name.

Alright. Bite the bullet. I'd be ready for this also.

However, this time, I guess we (the WAMP community) should reach consensus on this.

We did the version 1 => 2 change which caused ripples for implementors/users.

If we change the name, it'll be more ripples. I'm a little concerned that this spills anger.

But it's probably now or never (rgd name change) ..

Is there an animal that could somehow represent what WAMP is all about?
Just a thought...

The "dual nature" of WAMP .. providing 2 things in 1.

Amphibia?

It can swim _and_ walk. (like in: it can do RPC _and_ PubSub).

I'm not particular good at this "naming game" ..

The other source of inspiration might be: WAMP provides an application communication _fabric_.

Mmh.

/Tobias

0 Likes

#9

Change it entirely. Don't go the Zope way by keeping a loaded name.

Alright. Bite the bullet. I'd be ready for this also.

However, this time, I guess we (the WAMP community) should reach consensus
on this.

We did the version 1 => 2 change which caused ripples for
implementors/users.

If we change the name, it'll be more ripples. I'm a little concerned that
this spills anger.

But it's probably now or never (rgd name change) ..

Kudos to you for even considering it as I know it's not easy to change at
this time.

Is there an animal that could somehow represent what WAMP is all about?

Just a thought...

The "dual nature" of WAMP .. providing 2 things in 1.

Amphibia?

It can swim _and_ walk. (like in: it can do RPC _and_ PubSub).

I'm not particular good at this "naming game" ..

Me neither.
Hopefully the community will chime in.

- Sylvain
http://www.defuze.org
http://twitter.com/lawouach

0 Likes

#10

hey all,

i had the same issues when searching for WAMP related information so i’d also vote for a name update. :slight_smile:

as already mentioned, google search results tend to include records with insignificant chars dropped (e.g., ‘.’ ), so i think including hyphens etc is less than ideal.

out of the suggestions given, from marketing perspective, i personally like:

wampx (or even wampxt) as in ‘extension’ – WAMPxt is “websocket app msg proto extension”

(a quick google search shows ‘wampxt’ has 7 result pages, ‘wampx’ has 22 pages)

from list given these are ok, but wouldn’t be my first choice :slight_smile:

wamproto

wampws - a nice thing about this one is that searching pulls up existing wamp.ws references

cheers,

David

···

On Friday, July 11, 2014 8:45:31 AM UTC-6, Tobias Oberstein wrote:

Hi Michel,

Am 11.07.2014 11:04, schrieb Michel Desmoulin:

Really we should start thinking about a way to distinguish WAMP the

protocole from the server setup.

I guess you mean confusing WAMP (as in “Web Application Messaging
Protocol”) with WAMP (as in “Windows Apache MySQL PHP”).

It confuses everybody and make it so hard to google for it.

In retrospect, chosing “WAMP” as an acronym was a mistake. No doubt.

I agree that discoverability and confusion is a problem.

Go went for Golang.

Rust went for rustlang.

Can we settle for something like WAMP.ws (even if it’s not just

websocket, it the main transport anyway) and put it everywhere ?

Now, what should be do?

We would need a term/name that is easy to Google, easy to pronounce,

but nevertheless maintains some kind of relation to “WAMP”.

Off my head:

wamp2

wampx (pronounced: “wampex”)

wampws

wampp

wamproto

wamp-proto

==

The problem I have with “WAMP.ws”:

  • it has a special char in it (".") … makes googling / tagging harder

  • I cannot pronounce it quickly;)

Any ideas / suggestions on this are welcome!

Should be change? If so, what name?

Cheers,

/Tobias

0 Likes

#11

+1 agreed !!

···

On Friday, July 11, 2014 9:19:51 AM UTC-6, Sylvain Hellegouarch wrote:

Change it entirely. Don’t go the Zope way by keeping a loaded name.

Alright. Bite the bullet. I’d be ready for this also.

However, this time, I guess we (the WAMP community) should reach consensus on this.

We did the version 1 => 2 change which caused ripples for implementors/users.

If we change the name, it’ll be more ripples. I’m a little concerned that this spills anger.

But it’s probably now or never (rgd name change) …

Kudos to you for even considering it as I know it’s not easy to change at this time.

0 Likes

#12

i think it’s great that you’re even considering the name change ! that’s pretty open-minded in my book. :slight_smile:

i also agree NOW would be the time to do it if you feel like that’s the right decision. you know the real story, but i feel like WAMP is still early-adopter-ish, so we’re at the beginning and there’s less to change/update. after its done, all of the bazillion newcomers won’t know the difference. :slight_smile:

however, if you choose the perfect acronym for the 2 things WAMP does, what will happen when it does 3 things ? :slight_smile:

another perspective is just stop referencing WAMP as an acronym and simply consider it a name, e.g. Wampx. case in point from the Zope comment – when i see Zope mentioned, to me it’s just a name not an acronym (i used Zope from 2000-2006). i don’t think Wampx would be any better/worse than flickr, google (remember when that was weird?), dwolla, YAWS, or any other on the Internets these days. It’s just a name.

dmc

ps, it seems like the 1 => 2 transition was a normal, typical update in the tech world. yes, growing pains, but definitely worth it !

pps, just thinking about updating the work that is already in place makes my stomach churn and i won’t be doing the bulk of it ! =) if the name is just tweaked a little (Wampx) then all of the saved effort can be used to improve what’s already in place. WIN !

···

On Friday, July 11, 2014 9:16:30 AM UTC-6, Tobias Oberstein wrote:

I guess you mean confusing WAMP (as in "Web Application Messaging
Protocol") with WAMP (as in "Windows Apache MySQL PHP").

Indeed. It has always been confusing really.

Besides, “web application” is a bit simplistic. Afterall, can’t we use

the protocol outside web application anyway? Do ypu mean web as in world

wide web or as HTTP?

The “Web” in WAMP isn’t covering all uses of WAMP any longer.

E.g. you can use WAMP with a Internet of Things app where there isn’t
any “Web” involved at all.

In fact, the “W” formerly stood for “WebSocket”, but that wasn’t any
longer precise also (since WAMP can run over non-WebSocket as well).

Technically, what the protocol really provides is this:

Unified Application Messaging

That RPC+PubSub story.

However, “Unified Application Messaging Protocol (UAMP)” is bad also.

 >
 > It confuses everybody and make it so hard to google for it.
 >
In retrospect, chosing "WAMP" as an  acronym was a mistake. No doubt.
I agree that discoverability and confusion _is_ a problem.

Not just that… it’s not “sexy”. It’s a bit sad, but you need to be

easy to pronounce.

Yep. What would be good examples of names in the protocol field?

SPDY (“Speedy”) seems nice …

 > Go went for Golang.
 >
 > Rust went for rustlang.
 >
 > Can we settle for something like WAMP.ws (even if it's not just
 > websocket, it the main transport anyway) and put it everywhere ?
Now, what should be do?

Change it entirely. Don’t go the Zope way by keeping a loaded name.

Alright. Bite the bullet. I’d be ready for this also.

However, this time, I guess we (the WAMP community) should reach
consensus on this.

We did the version 1 => 2 change which caused ripples for
implementors/users.

If we change the name, it’ll be more ripples. I’m a little concerned
that this spills anger.

But it’s probably now or never (rgd name change) …

Is there an animal that could somehow represent what WAMP is all about?

Just a thought…

The “dual nature” of WAMP … providing 2 things in 1.

Amphibia?

It can swim and walk. (like in: it can do RPC and PubSub).

I’m not particular good at this “naming game” …

The other source of inspiration might be: WAMP provides an application
communication fabric.

Mmh.

/Tobias

0 Likes

#13

“In other words: what SPA frameworks are developers actually using out there?”

infoq.com asked its community about the Top JS frameworks about a year ago:

http://www.infoq.com/research/top-javascript-mvc-frameworks

to see results, scroll down to the chart and click Average (from: Vote Now | Average | Analysis )

top: Angular, Backbone, Knockout

···

On Friday, July 11, 2014 8:56:34 AM UTC-6, Sylvain Hellegouarch wrote:

In other words: what SPA frameworks are developers actually using out there?

No idea as I’ve never used one so far. So, i’m also interested in knowing the statistics.

0 Likes

#14

Hi David,

> i think it's great that you're even considering the name change ! that's

pretty open-minded in my book. :slight_smile:

Yeah, I know when I fail (usually) - and the naming was a mistake. And I think it's critical for (and a strength of) a community to have open-minded people ..

i also agree NOW would be the time to do it if you feel like that's the
right decision. you know the real story, but i feel like WAMP is still
early-adopter-ish, so we're at the beginning and there's less to
change/update. after its done, all of the bazillion newcomers won't know
the difference. :slight_smile:

Yep. That would be the deal: friction _now_ in exchange for less hassles down the road

however, if you choose the perfect acronym for the 2 things WAMP does,
what will happen when it does 3 things ? :slight_smile:

Ah yeah;)

another perspective is just stop referencing WAMP as an acronym and
simply consider it a name, e.g. Wampx. case in point from the Zope
comment – when i see Zope mentioned, to me it's just a name not an
acronym (i used Zope from 2000-2006). i don't think Wampx would be any
better/worse than flickr, google (remember when that was weird?),
dwolla, YAWS, or any other on the Internets these days. It's just a name.

That sounds reasonable. We don't need an acronym. It doesn't add value.

dmc

ps, it seems like the 1 => 2 transition was a normal, typical update in
the tech world. yes, growing pains, but definitely worth it !

I agree on that. The 1->2 transition was also planned from the beginning. That whole "first gather experience, then iterate" thing.

pps, just thinking about updating the work that is already in place
makes my stomach churn and i won't be doing the bulk of it ! =) if the
name is just tweaked a little (Wampx) then all of the saved effort can
be used to improve what's already in place. WIN !

I see. Guess that would apply equally to similar tweaked names like

wampx
wampws
wamproto
..

Let's continue to gather feedback on this issue ..

Cheers,

/Tobias

···

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#15

That's quite interesting!

Nowerdays, we (Tavendo) are doing most SPAs using Knockout, which is more a focused library (MVVM/data-binding) than a complete SPA framework. We didn't have the need to put something between Knockout and Autobahn with this. It works great without additional stuff.

The others however are full-fledged SPA frameworks:

- Angular
- Backbone
- ExtJS

And with those, an "integration thing" between above and Autobahn could make sense.

In fact, for ExtJS, there is

https://github.com/tavendo/AutobahnExtJS

which provides ExtJS "data proxies" to wire up to a WAMP backend. AutobahnExtJS needs update to WAMP2 .. and I forgot mostly everything on ExtJS;)

Hence: if anyone with ExtJS knowledge wants to step in, taking over AutobahnExtJS dev. would be highly welcome! [You can rename the project if you want .. I'm not terribly invested in this piece of code]

I am not aware of any Autobahn integration for Angular or Backbone. So those would be nice offshot projects also ..

Cheers,
/Tobias

···

Am 11.07.2014 18:41, schrieb David McCuskey:

"In other words: what SPA frameworks are developers actually using out
there?"

infoq.com asked its community about the Top JS frameworks about a year ago:

http://www.infoq.com/research/top-javascript-mvc-frameworks
to see results, scroll down to the chart and click Average (from: Vote
Now | Average | Analysis )

top: Angular, Backbone, Knockout

0 Likes

#16

Another suggestion for a word, not acronym, that still retains somewhat of the sound of WAMP, and hints to protocols used by professionals in production environments:

whempro

(I’d like it even better without the ‘h’, but that name is already taken).

···

Op vrijdag 11 juli 2014 17:39:02 UTC+2 schreef David McCuskey:

hey all,

i had the same issues when searching for WAMP related information so i’d also vote for a name update. :slight_smile:

as already mentioned, google search results tend to include records with insignificant chars dropped (e.g., ‘.’ ), so i think including hyphens etc is less than ideal.

out of the suggestions given, from marketing perspective, i personally like:

wampx (or even wampxt) as in ‘extension’ – WAMPxt is “websocket app msg proto extension”

(a quick google search shows ‘wampxt’ has 7 result pages, ‘wampx’ has 22 pages)

from list given these are ok, but wouldn’t be my first choice :slight_smile:

wamproto

wampws - a nice thing about this one is that searching pulls up existing wamp.ws references

cheers,

David

On Friday, July 11, 2014 8:45:31 AM UTC-6, Tobias Oberstein wrote:

Hi Michel,

Am 11.07.2014 11:04, schrieb Michel Desmoulin:

Really we should start thinking about a way to distinguish WAMP the

protocole from the server setup.

I guess you mean confusing WAMP (as in “Web Application Messaging
Protocol”) with WAMP (as in “Windows Apache MySQL PHP”).

It confuses everybody and make it so hard to google for it.

In retrospect, chosing “WAMP” as an acronym was a mistake. No doubt.

I agree that discoverability and confusion is a problem.

Go went for Golang.

Rust went for rustlang.

Can we settle for something like WAMP.ws (even if it’s not just

websocket, it the main transport anyway) and put it everywhere ?

Now, what should be do?

We would need a term/name that is easy to Google, easy to pronounce,

but nevertheless maintains some kind of relation to “WAMP”.

Off my head:

wamp2

wampx (pronounced: “wampex”)

wampws

wampp

wamproto

wamp-proto

==

The problem I have with “WAMP.ws”:

  • it has a special char in it (".") … makes googling / tagging harder

  • I cannot pronounce it quickly;)

Any ideas / suggestions on this are welcome!

Should be change? If so, what name?

Cheers,

/Tobias

0 Likes

#17

How about “Wampire” :slight_smile:

···

Le vendredi 11 juillet 2014 11:04:56 UTC+2, Michel Desmoulin a écrit :

Hi,

I watched the Arnout Kazemier’s conf (http://vimeo.com/77289036) about primus, a abstraction layer on top of websocket trying unify NodeJS websocket framework.

There maybe something to do about autobahn.js and primus, espacially since primus so I opened a ticket on his bug tracker : https://github.com/primus/primus/issues/261

You may want to get in touch with the guy, he seems really pationate and the NodeJS community are really allies we want and need to improve tools around WAMP.

Really we should start thinking about a way to distinguish WAMP the protocole from the server setup.

It confuses everybody and make it so hard to google for it.

Go went for Golang.

Rust went for rustlang.

Can we settle for something like WAMP.ws (even if it’s not just websocket, it the main transport anyway) and put it everywhere ?

0 Likes